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Offline kitaree

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Perspectives
« on: 04/22/15, 09:45:23 PM »
(WARNING: The following may be controversial. You have been warned)



So imagine Vader and Sidious walking in front of their soldiers, looking all bad-ass and angry, then one of the soldiers steps up to them and says..

"Sirs! I know we've been losing a lot to the rebels, but see, the problem is that you don't value us enough..."

So of course we can all imagine what happens next, the two Sith....... calmly listen to the arguments, nodding in agreement.

Of course that's not what would happen. Yet in many IC situations, that's what we're forced to RP with, and I think there's a big lack of proper perspectives on the server. The way I see Sith, and how they are portrayed in any movie/comic I've seen, is like a god. They choke people with a hand, produce lightning from their fingertips, most people are afraid to even see one, nevermind talk to them. There is no way, ever, that a soldier could talk back to a room of Sith and be able to walk out with their life. Here's one description (from Wookiepedia) of what Sith are:

Evil began in a time before recorded history, when magicians made themselves into kings…and gods…using the powers of the dark side of the Force. The weak-minded have ever been ready to obey one who wields great power. Those who learned the powers of the dark side were quick to exploit this weakness—to make war. Again and again the dark side has surged forth, like a storm…devouring whole worlds and entire star systems. Those who mastered dark power became dark power. They unleashed destruction, for no other reason than for selfish gain. They despoiled nations…destroyed whole civilizations.

By every account, a Sith is far superior to normal men/women, except for those well known cases where they get taken by surprised and stabbed in the back or some such.

But that's not all. Sith don't become what they are because they were bored on a Sunday. Here's what it means to fall to the Dark Side:

The Sith call it enlightenment, however no records explain exactly how a conversion to the dark side takes place. For some the dark side was extremely attractive and almost impossible to reject. Every time a person in tune with the Force called on the dark side, they became more and more addicted to the power it brought them.

Unless you play a greyish Sith, there's no valid IC reason you should be anywhere close to reasonable towards anyone talking sense to you about where power lies, or how you should run the Empire. You are an addict to power and the Force. Yet consistently we see the opposite happening in-game.

In one sentence, what happened at the war room really should never have.


Offline Zuhara

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #1 on: 04/22/15, 10:10:07 PM »
I think the interesting aspect to consider here is that the Sith are at ends.

In example with the Major's speech, you saw that some Sith backed his points and offered to support his claim. Others denounced it as sedition, and traitorous.

Yet no side truly made an active move on the other because there were Sith on both sides of the argument, regardless if an Imperial Major was leading it. The Sith are, indeed, power hungry and seek to attain a level of status similar to a god amongst their followers.

But at this point in the war, with so many betrayals from within the Empire and actually still being on the losing side against the Republic, there are plenty of logical reasons for why men and women of the Empire can challenge Sith rule while having even some Sith allowing it to be questioned. Simply because not all Sith are too blinded in their quest for power to realize when they are losing/can't deny they aren't exactly in a position to claim complete domination.

Sith are more than capable of strategy and cunning, mastering arts of deception. But in order to be cunning and a tactician, you have to know and accept where you are currently at in a situation. And if you are in a situation like the Empire is in with the Republic, you can not deny that perhaps, the power plays and infighting within the Sith have caused them to be at a losing situation with the Republic.


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Offline Orell

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #2 on: 04/22/15, 10:12:47 PM »
Kita: I understand your point and respect it regarding IC circumstances.

The problem is OOC aspects.

I could go into a long, ugly diatribe on the subject, but in the end it all comes back to a central point:

My character (in this case, Effet) does not exist only to advance the RP of Sith characters. He exists to develop in his own right, influenced by Sith, but not simply a trivial, disposable pawn of Sith.

He will always be weaker than Sith. He will always be trivial, compared to Sith. He will always be treated inferiorly by Sith.

But that does not mean that his character development, his existence should only be pleasant when far away from Sith... because, I'm sad to say, that's mostly what Effet's RP has felt like. Brief spurts with you, Aylaa, my own chars or with non-Sith aside, RP with Effet has seldom been pleasant.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Karmic

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #3 on: 04/22/15, 10:58:52 PM »
Yes, since we're not writing novels where we can make all the characters interact however we want; if every SIth played like a REAL Sith - not only would we not get anywhere fast; but noone would want to Icily interact with you until/unless they wanted a fight.

It doesn't work Icily for us all to be going around power hungry and force choking anyoen who doesn't agree with us.  On top of that, its rude and OOCily disrespectful to do so.... (without talking to the person first :).

Perspective - the IC character has to also operate in a reality where htey want to interact with other people, have "friends"/ allies... etc.  You can't play a God.  Period.  At least not "openly" with anyone whenever you want, the way Vadar or Palpatine would.

I can't speak to War Room I wasn't there.  But if all the Darths never listened, or pretended, to respect any NON-Darths in there Icily.  Well you'd have a really small War Room.... 

But overall, no... you can't walk around acting like a REAL Sith 100% of the time else you'll find yourself eventually rather lonely, at a dead end, or constantly killing off your characters (because of all the people that will come after you...lol).

And this has definitely been covered in multiple threads (at least the above aspects of the limitations to playing Darth/Jedi among non-force-users as well as just among other people you want ..to want.. to keep playing with.)

~~~

And building on what Zu pointed out - yes, Sith manipulate and "fake" things all the time.  Re: Palpatine before he was known.  The guy spent DECADES (longer even?) playing nice with the Republic, pretending to be a good guy, making friends, building power bsaes that had NO IDEA what he was.  It wasn't until the "end" of all that, that he "came out" to be the big baddie Darth type.  The guy was voted HEAD of the ENTIRE SENATE - from something HE brought around to happen!!  That's a power play of epic planning... that's what you call "the long term vision..."  He was such a good ambassador, noone had any clue - including all those Jedi who bought him hook, line, and sinker.

SO yea, actually, before Episode iV - Palpatine would have stood there respectfully, listened to the soldier's suggestions, discussed it with him and possibly even taken things into consideration if the guy had good ideas and it was no skin off Palpatine's nose....

Remember, there is more to Sith, and Darths, than 4/5/6 in the movies.  They can be much more covert and underground when they want to be.  (Which is often why I do compare Karmic to a Palpatine Sort - weaving truth and lies interchangeably to perform/portray whatever it is she needs to ....to protect herself/do what she wants.)
« Last Edit: 04/22/15, 11:06:31 PM by Karmic »

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Dorian

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #4 on: 04/23/15, 01:36:41 AM »
So I will preface my post by saying I was going to bring this up in the raid call chat earlier, but I was doing other things. Figured this thread works well for it.

Now I agree that the Sith are the leaders of the Empire. They are the ruling cast. This is a clear fact, as it is called the Sith Empire.

The issue I am seeing is that people who are playing the roles of Sith tend towards those of later eras. Your Darth Banes, Vaders, ect. The Sith who view their soldiers and minions that can be cast aside on a whim because, hey they are the dominating force in the Galaxy, who who cares if one a trooper or admiral is Force choked.

That isn't the case in this era. In this era the Sith do not rule the Galaxy, in fact are in a war trying to take it over. So killing the men and women who will be dying for you just screws the Empire over. Vader did not have to worry about this, he and Big-E ruled pretty much the entire known Galaxy.

In the lore it is shown from an early point in the history of the Empire that the Sith do value the non-Sith of the Empire. The prime example of this would be Odile Vaiken http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Odile_Vaiken (For those that don't know him)

Vaiken is the one who set up the entire Imperial military. He is the one that pretty much gave us Kaas City. It wasn't the Sith that did this, it was the non-Sith. Vaiken was made the first Grand Moff by the Emperor himself for his deeds. Yeah, he is unique, but he is what every Imperial hopes to be one day. The Sith clearly value this because why else would the honor the man by naming Vaiken spacedock after him? I am not even going to go in on the Moffs of the Empire that are seen as having about the same pull as the Sith from the SI story.

What I am trying to at least bring up is that those are playing Imperial military should at least be treated with respect. Because there is a precedent for Sith doing just this. Yes, Sith are still going to be the rulers. Doesn't mean they have to treat the men and women fighting for the Empire the same as you would an alien or slave. The two lowest things to be in the Imperial caste system.

Just my views on this subject. Not all will share them, but at least it should give food for thought on how to fix any issues that may still linger with Imperial rp in general.  :darkside:

Offline Semah

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #5 on: 04/23/15, 04:36:22 AM »
Gonna bring up a meta-issue here. Apologies if it slightly derails the lore discussion.

that's what we're forced to RP with...a big lack of proper perspectives...there's no valid IC reason you should...You are an...should never have...

We have a terrible history with OOC hostility and condescension impside, and it drives people away. The same thing happens pubside re: Jedi romance, but before I quit it tended to be a less poisonous issue. It's all exhausting.

Offline kitaree

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #6 on: 04/23/15, 06:16:05 AM »
There seems to be two arguments that I'm hearing.

The first argument is that current day Sith are not like Vader or Bane, that we are more pragmatic and level headed, more akin to other Imperials. I don't think that's the case. This is from the SWTOR page about Sith Warriors:

Destined to eradicate the incompetent chaos created by the Jedi, the Sith seek to rule the galaxy through power and intimidation. The armies of the Sith Empire are trained to accomplish this task, but they require the leadership of bold Sith Warriors—loyal and mighty overlords—who will drive them to conquest and victory.

When has an overlord ever cared what one of his minion thought? And about Sith Inquisitors:

Though their skills are varied and many, Sith Inquisitors are most feared for their ability to channel the energy of the Force, making them a spectacle to behold on the battlefield. Seething sparks of lightning explode from the Inquisitors’ fingertips and wrap their enemies in tendrils of pure Force energy. Because Inquisitors can twist the Force into lightning to stun, subdue, or destroy their foes, it has become their signature. Those who have experienced the sensation of the Inquisitor’s Force Lightning and survived forever recoil from the crackling sound of electricity.

Nothing in there seems to indicate that Sith are any less feared/powerful than in other Star Wars lore. Even in cinematics from the game, we see Sith destroying entire armies, and when a trooper actually does face a Sith, he gets almost completely destroyed until a Jedi arrives to battle the Sith, and only gets to tip victory by throwing a grenade into the mist.

The second argument is that if we were to RP 'real' Sith, then it would not be nice OOC wise, and non-Force users would be relegated to triviality. But I disagree. Look at non-Force users from the movies, like Han and Chewbacca. You can't argue that they don't have their time in the spotlight. Yet they are never portrayed as equal to Force users. In fact, should either of them face Vader directly, they would die instantly, or have to run for their lives. So their stories are different, they scheme behind the scenes, they smuggle things for rebels, etc.

I very much play Kita as a Dark Side Sith. She is for slavery, believes in Sith tradition, and is addicted to the Dark Side, yet doesn't have trouble RPing. I purposely made her addiction manifest itself in a different way. She is addicted to the secrets of the Dark Side. She has the will and power to destroy large groups of opponents through Sith alchemy. Should she deploy a Force plague to a planet and kill millions, she wouldn't even feel anything for them, it doesn't even compute for her that anyone would choose life as opposed to increasing the Empire's knowledge of the Force.

But I believe it's even possible to play the Bane arch-type as well. For those who follow Game of Thrones, think about The Hound. He's pretty much the most reviled character there is, bred for combat and filled with hatred, yet has tons of stories and interactions, not all of them ending in bloodshed. Anyone walks up to someone like that and tells him what they think, there would be no calm discussion. It would be shouting, threats of violence, etc. The very thought of an entire room of them together calmly debating the issue is ludicrous.

Again, I'm not trying to tell people how to play, but I believe there are some baseline set by lore which are being completely ignored, and right now Sith RP resemble more a comic villain than a true Sith.


Offline Zuhara

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #7 on: 04/23/15, 08:52:07 AM »
There seems to be two arguments that I'm hearing.

The first argument is that current day Sith are not like Vader or Bane, that we are more pragmatic and level headed, more akin to other Imperials. I don't think that's the case. This is from the SWTOR page about Sith Warriors:

Destined to eradicate the incompetent chaos created by the Jedi, the Sith seek to rule the galaxy through power and intimidation. The armies of the Sith Empire are trained to accomplish this task, but they require the leadership of bold Sith Warriors—loyal and mighty overlords—who will drive them to conquest and victory.

When has an overlord ever cared what one of his minion thought? And about Sith Inquisitors:

Though their skills are varied and many, Sith Inquisitors are most feared for their ability to channel the energy of the Force, making them a spectacle to behold on the battlefield. Seething sparks of lightning explode from the Inquisitors’ fingertips and wrap their enemies in tendrils of pure Force energy. Because Inquisitors can twist the Force into lightning to stun, subdue, or destroy their foes, it has become their signature. Those who have experienced the sensation of the Inquisitor’s Force Lightning and survived forever recoil from the crackling sound of electricity.

Nothing in there seems to indicate that Sith are any less feared/powerful than in other Star Wars lore. Even in cinematics from the game, we see Sith destroying entire armies, and when a trooper actually does face a Sith, he gets almost completely destroyed until a Jedi arrives to battle the Sith, and only gets to tip victory by throwing a grenade into the mist.

Actually, I'd like to challenge your final paragraph at the end because of one simple notion: they are less feared because they are currently losing the war.

Take for example, Vader and Bane. Both are Sith Lords who were unchallenged by their own type of philosophy: no one stood up against them other than people that disagreed with the philosophy they represented entirely. Their minions did not question them because they were the sole source of what is truly "Sith" and what is not. Therefore, any contradictions to the original intentions of what is truly Sith may be overlooked because they are the only ones determining the philosophy.

Versus TOR, where you have an entire culture and civilization of Sith. Sith who argue, Sith who call one another underminers, cheats, liars, and debasers of true Sith philosophy. Doing exactly what the writers of this universe have envisioned of the Empire: A whole group of bickering people desperately trying to claim their viewpoints are correct over another. Without a united source of power to fall under in the Emperor, and having spent a few years weakening themselves to the point where the Republic has the power advantage when the war is back on, it's highly logical and pragmatic to assume that the Sith are not even remotely close to the level of domination that Vader and Bane both exhibited during their respective rules. Simply because it's like a giant game of King of the Hill during peace time for the Sith: they've spent all this time fighting each other off the hill. The Republic is like a squad of four allied friends rolling in, kicking everyone down because their opposition had spent too much energy fighting each other.

The Sith naturally proclaim themselves superior, but it is just common way of life for people to falter in belief when they are losing. Think of Iron Man 2, when Whiplash states, "If you make God bleed, people cease to believe in him."

That is what is happening: If the Sith are Gods, the Republic is undoubtedly making them bleed because they are currently winning the war. So naturally, there should be a good amount of people calling for some changes, even Sith who aren't blinded by pride. Which is clear those exist, considering Baras made a healthy career out of that point before being put down by the Warrior because he was, ironically, blinded by pride in the end.


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Offline Joshmaul

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #8 on: 04/23/15, 08:53:54 AM »
Malagant did say that the whims of the Sith are not usually open to interpretation by non-Sith, and said that the Sith do rule the Empire, that's the whole point - but this is not your grandfather's Empire anymore. The Dark Council, when it's not busy playing musical chairs, has enacted tremendous reforms in the wake of the last war (allowing aliens and slaves to train on Korriban) and Malgus' attempted coup (the Alien Initiatives). Why? Because "Sith tradition" left tremendous deficiencies in the ranks of both the Sith and the Imperial military.

"How things were", quite frankly, is not viable when trying to maintain some semblance of community...and Imp-side, it's stuff like last night that makes people less inclined to participate. Something of "how it's written" does have to give for there to be RP; it can't constantly be like what happened last night. I don't think that accepting the changes to the Empire in RP is unrealistic - and I think ganging up on people who choose not to accept the status quo lore is the reason why people become alienated from Imp-side RP.

Which, as of last night, now includes myself. I will no longer attend the War Room as it stands now with any of my characters, nor participate in any Imperial-based RP outside of my own stories, or within the Reclamation. While it was all played out at the time well enough, the aftermath of last night has left me with a somewhat sour taste. I don't think there was malicious intent against me, to be clear; that's how their characters are, and that's how they RP them. But it becomes frustrating when you can't even form a contrary idea or voice an opposing opinion without half the room erupting in insults and threats, resulting in what happened last night. The War Room, with respect to its organizers, has become a colossal joke, and I wish no more part of it.

RP has consequences, yes, but if you expect people to genteely accept being undermined and belittled for not walking your line, don't be surprised if they don't take as kindly to it as you hope.
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Offline Zuhara

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #9 on: 04/23/15, 09:15:11 AM »
If I may, the only negative I drew out from last night is that a few of us were ignored. I would openly have my agent make a comment about how the Force has no connection to intelligence (she isn't an Imperial, so she is naturally more outspoken than most and hasn't exactly been humbled well enough), yet it was clear that there were maybe two or three parties at best that would argue with each other.

Personally, I thought the War Room last night and what the topic of discussion brought as a whole was the most realistic representation of Imperial RP during the current events of TOR. It's honestly why that even if I'm not really regarded by anyone whenever my characters chime in, I like seeing these events because they're so resemblant of the Imperial story. When Marr basically states a need for the Empire to become more unified, I can easily see that he would point to that event last night as an argument to change the Empire in the direction he needs it to go. I loved the quips that Malagant and Thrax made back and forth, such as the "You should feel privileged based on your alien heritage" and Malagant responding back with "As should you, given that you're from the Jedi."

Two Sith, clearly going at each other because both are attempting to proclaim themselves as the better philosophers. The only thing I believe people should prepare themselves for is conflict, and that if they do, they shouldn't seek to defuse it. But rather, include more people in on it while avoiding the actual physical side of things from taking place. Keep it only to arguments, and merely forcing the lightsaber brandishers to fight outside of the room.

I'm not sure I can speak for the others, but imo, the only thing I felt that was a problem is that people would make their own quips, but be ignored in the crossfire between the obvious main characters. If the RP were more inclusive for everyone, rather than having some big key players while mostly everyone else watched on, I think that's all I'd like to see change personally.


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And know that this power can be yours."

Offline kitaree

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #10 on: 04/23/15, 09:35:16 AM »
But it becomes frustrating when you can't even form a contrary idea or voice an opposing opinion without half the room erupting in insults and threats, resulting in what happened last night.

But isn't that exactly what should have happened? Someone walks in, and says that a thousand years of doctrine must go, how exactly are traditional Sith supposed to act? In my view, the response was incredibly tame. He could have been killed on the spot, instead he got insults and threats. When did we get afraid of IC drama? To me the only time it goes too far is when it goes OOC, or when someone modifies their IC behavior in a way that is totally ridiculous for the setting.


Offline Aylaa

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #11 on: 04/23/15, 10:01:34 AM »
But it becomes frustrating when you can't even form a contrary idea or voice an opposing opinion without half the room erupting in insults and threats, resulting in what happened last night.

But isn't that exactly what should have happened? Someone walks in, and says that a thousand years of doctrine must go, how exactly are traditional Sith supposed to act? In my view, the response was incredibly tame. He could have been killed on the spot, instead he got insults and threats. When did we get afraid of IC drama? To me the only time it goes too far is when it goes OOC, or when someone modifies their IC behavior in a way that is totally ridiculous for the setting.

Except a bunch of the sith in the room (including the Host) are actually Reformists who've come to agree with a lot of the more radical statements that Darth Marr (Leader of our faction!) has made and have started to evolve their views based on that.

Mostly because they have the very Sithy basis of "We want to Win" and "We want to Survive!

My personal take on Sith is that they're wily, slippery and adaptive. Hell, The Rule ofTtwo that eventually happens more or less jettisons what a hundred-Thousand years of having an entire order of people and reduces it to just two, to worm into place in the future like the most ultimate sleeper cell. And you know what? That was REALLY successful!

"
If I may, the only negative I drew out from last night is that a few of us were ignored. I would openly have my agent make a comment about how the Force has no connection to intelligence (she isn't an Imperial, so she is naturally more outspoken than most and hasn't exactly been humbled well enough), yet it was clear that there were maybe two or three parties at best that would argue with each other.

My apologies for that. I was on an Alt for IC reasons and my usual attempts at getting people to Slow Down, keep the peanut-gallery comments down and take turns* were somewhat less effective. Also people were REALLY fired up and there was, I think, the first time we had strong voices on either side.

*(I attempt to impose order because it's a small space, chat goes fast, stuff gets lost and even if we're playing Sith, we're all humans attempting to have a good time. I try to do it IC when I can so as to be less disruptive.)


"
Personally, I thought the War Room last night and what the topic of discussion brought as a whole was the most realistic representation of Imperial RP during the current events of TOR. It's honestly why that even if I'm not really regarded by anyone whenever my characters chime in, I like seeing these events because they're so resemblant of the Imperial story. When Marr basically states a need for the Empire to become more unified, I can easily see that he would point to that event last night as an argument to change the Empire in the direction he needs it to go. I loved the quips that Malagant and Thrax made back and forth, such as the "You should feel privileged based on your alien heritage" and Malagant responding back with "As should you, given that you're from the Jedi."

Two Sith, clearly going at each other because both are attempting to proclaim themselves as the better philosophers. The only thing I believe people should prepare themselves for is conflict, and that if they do, they shouldn't seek to defuse it. But rather, include more people in on it while avoiding the actual physical side of things from taking place. Keep it only to arguments, and merely forcing the lightsaber brandishers to fight outside of the room.

I'm not sure I can speak for the others, but imo, the only thing I felt that was a problem is that people would make their own quips, but be ignored in the crossfire between the obvious main characters. If the RP were more inclusive for everyone, rather than having some big key players while mostly everyone else watched on, I think that's all I'd like to see change personally.

I thought it was a great debate. I understand if some people are... angry? Disappointed? That they had a view of Sith and that suddenly we were discussing things they regard as Non-sith. But, as has been posted by many here, that's the Era we're playing in! The Sith are the higher caste in their society. They are the rulers and they are the law. And they are losing. And so there are pushes to break some of the traditional molds in the (vain, we all know) attempt to not die.

I hope that the debate on this thread has shown both sides what the other is thinking and so next time it's less of an unpleasant surprise and it's more something we can dig into with gusto.

Again, apologies to the folks who got lost in the shuffle. It's an issue in popular and in heated events. I was attempting to let it play organically and not impose and to do so in voice when I did, and perhaps a stronger arm was needed. That's no excuse, but it's a reason and I beg your understanding. In the future I think that if a debate gets to the point it did yesterday, I'll start in with the /Shout ing and impose a little more order because there does come a point where it's too chaotic.

Offline kitaree

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #12 on: 04/23/15, 10:12:41 AM »
My personal take on Sith is that they're wily, slippery and adaptive. Hell, The Rule ofTtwo that eventually happens more or less jettisons what a hundred-Thousand years of having an entire order of people and reduces it to just two, to worm into place in the future like the most ultimate sleeper cell. And you know what? That was REALLY successful!

But for that to happen, it means the previous regimes must have failed. Meaning we can't succeed. Of course many of the traditions of the Sith are self-destructive, but our addiction to the Dark Side blinds us to that. If we 'grow out of it' as it were, then we're no longer following the lore.

I'm fine with some Sith being reformist, but it seems unrealistic to me that most would be, or that a public setting full of Sith would openly discuss things like soldiers' well-being. We're the Empire, where plenty of Sith still judge others based on what percentage of purity their blood has.


Offline Cabochard

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #13 on: 04/23/15, 10:13:26 AM »
So, there's a lot of good arguments for both sides of the issue here, but there's another thing that you need to look at. I don't usually get involved in these kinds of things, but this time it's something I've been dealing with since I started playing. Yes, it is disrespectful OOCly for a Sith player to reach across the room and zap anyone who disagrees with him, because it does not engender fun RP.

But it is also massively disrespectful to insult, belittle, and even threaten Sith, and force players to not react appropriately, because of the OOC.

The reason players feel comfortable saying these things, and saying things that run completely counter to the Lore-determined behavior and beliefs of the Empire, is because there is a feeling of plot-armor, of sorts. The other players can't just zap, or choke, or stab them, because it is OOCly unacceptable to do so.

The Empire is not the Republic. I know it may seem obvious, and that's something that gets said a lot to anyone who voices their opinion, but that's because it is a valid point.

In the Empire, voicing an opinion gets you killed.

There are entire organizations (ImpTel, for example) who exist to weed out people with Opinions. If you say something that the government (that is, the Sith) don't like, you are removed. Because the Empire is not about freedom of opinion. The Empire is not about everyone getting a say in how things are done. The Empire is about the Sith deciding how things happen.



A second point, is something that most people don't realize. The Empire is not losing the war. At least, not in itself.

Imagine for a second, that a Sith walks onto a podium in the middle of Kaas, gathers all the citizens, and says "I'm sorry guys, but we're losing."

That would never happen, right?

And yet, everyone acts as if it has happened. As if the Dark Council has told every living person in the Empire that they're losing the war. They haven't.

The Outreach Bureau (real thing, look it up) exists to spread propaganda. They would never allow "The Empire is Losing" to be a known fact. As far as the average person in the Empire is concerned, they are winning the war.

And yes, PCs are not average people. But, there's also another problem. A Galactic War (a Star War, if you will), concerns millions of worlds across distances so vast we don't have numbers for them. Any single person would be unable to wade through the masses of paperwork and the hundreds of security clearances necessary to receive even a fraction of all that information. Most Sith are aware of the systems they rule, those they're trying to conquer, and famous campaigns by others.

That is, at most, maybe a hundred worlds. If the Sith, the rulers, the Gods of the Empire, only know about a hundred or so worlds, how can anyone who doesn't command anywhere near that amount of authority ever know more? Unless they're a Grand Moff, they're highly unlikely to.



Ultimately, my point is that, while I have always (as far as I know), and always will, respect other people's characters and not zap/choke/stab them, and I understand how frustrating it is when Sith players throw around their weight, it is just as frustrating when people do clearly anti-Imperial things, and expect the Sith not to throw their weight around.

Offline Aylaa

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Re: Perspectives
« Reply #14 on: 04/23/15, 10:27:29 AM »

A second point, is something that most people don't realize. The Empire is not losing the war. At least, not in itself.

Imagine for a second, that a Sith walks onto a podium in the middle of Kaas, gathers all the citizens, and says "I'm sorry guys, but we're losing."

That would never happen, right?

Except it does in the beginning of Makeb. Darth Marr is speaking directly with your player character, and says pretty unambiguiously "We're losing."

Now is this broader knowledge? I dunno. I think that it's a fair point to say that "No" it probably isn't. And probably because we've all played Makeb, because it is common knowledge to the PCs, it's treated as such. Fair? Unfair? Dunno. Does the character in question have access to this information? Are they trying to enact change? Are they rolling along as everything is fine? I think we have people who have chosen both courses. I think that both courses are entirely valid. I think it's a not a great thing to tell someone else "Justify to me why you know that information." Why not trust the other player is making an informed decision?

I play characters involved in the Sith War Machine, and as such They know it. This has informed their opinions on a lot of stuff.  My characters feel okay saying these things because when you get down to it, they (like most sith) think they are right, and they also feel they have the agreement of the biggest fish in the pond. It's not an OOC plot armor - it's because they honestly think they have the unfiltered view, and they want the Empire (and themselves) to survive.