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General => Outside Realm => Topic started by: blingdenston on 12/22/19, 11:44:30 AM

Title: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: blingdenston on 12/22/19, 11:44:30 AM
TRoS is out. The saga is complete. The victors write the history, the vanquished fade into infamy, and the droids roll on.

So! Stop here before the SPOILERS come!


I hated it, I never want to see it again. It's an act of cowardice, a mess from head to toe, and a living condemnation of the way we make movies entering the '20s. The word that occurred to me the most while watching it was 'Pathetic.'

I'd rate it D+...I'd LIKE to say C-, but the virtues it has are just throttled by a schizophrenic plot, a propulsive and scattershot pace, and a BIZARRE obsession with shipping and retcons. If it was SO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT to J.J. Abrams to make three Star Wars movies, why didn't he just make the second one so that he wouldn't have to jam two or three movies worth of plot into this one?

That's my precis. I'll probably have a more detailed discussion down below. What did you think?
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: Orell on 12/22/19, 02:06:48 PM
I'm more in a "eeeeeh" mode with it.

I thought that it was a fairly well directed, brilliantly acted film that had a number of strong action pieces and some great comedic moments, with moments that tugged on my heartstrings and a few concepts that I found intriguing.

And that the actual story was dumb as shit.

Four death fake-outs, multiple plot cul-de-sacs, no time for the characters to breathe, no themes beyond "hey maybe you don't have to be an evil monster just because your granddaddy was" and an entire fleet of planet-destroying ships that also come with giant "Shoot here for massive damage" weak spots.

JJ Abrams really just cannot help himself. The only way to outdo a planet-sized superweapon that could blow up entire star-systems was a massive fleet of planet-killing ships.

And yeah, something like a third of this film could be removed if everyone stayed together and C-3P0 could just say what the dagger said.

......but really, the worst part was Palpatine. Everything about him. His plan was dumb, his strategy made no sense, his powers were of the "whatever is needed for the plot to work", him being Rey's grandfather was an annoying retcon (even if the film at least did something with it) and... he just bored me as a character.

Palpatine boring.

Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: GabrielThorne on 12/23/19, 12:41:13 AM
These three videos pretty much sum up my views.

Personally. I felt like it was written by r/saltierthancrait or reddit in general. It felt cliched, predictable, and it just didn't mesh with me. I did like it initially, but looking I think Hellogreedo put it best, it feels like...when you're driving straight along the highway, and then you jerk your steering wheel to the right. That's what this film feels like.

To be honest, I'm surprised that the audience score on RT is in the 80's, last I checked...And to me that just solidifies a feeling that I've had since TLJ came out, that people just don't want Star Wars to mean anything, they'd rather have fan service, which is what this movie mostly was. From the whole Rey Palpatine thing right down to Rose being Jar Jar'd to Luke's force ghost scene where he catches the lightsaber and to Chewie getting a medal at the end, which may possibly just be Han's. It just felt...Like it was apologizing profusely for The Last Jedi and placating those people, like the ones on r/saltierthancrait, like Geeks + Gamers, like Star Wars Theory, like Mike Zer0h, like the rest of the fandom menace that they have taken to call themselves, the very vocal minority who bitch and moan about every single thing lucasfilm has done since 1999, that harrass the cast and crew, that shout you down if you like anything relating to the sequels, who don't get what star wars is supposed to be about...And I'm sorry, but I feel like that was the wrong choice and JJ should have not been a coward, nor do I think he should have been involved in the series from the get go.

Like...Star wars is at its best when it doesn't focus on fan service. Look at KOTOR, KOTOR II, SWTOR, Star Wars: Republic, literally anything that takes place in legends before ROTJ, and at least 25% of the stuff that takes place after ROTJ. Rian put it best in this interview, and i think disney and lucasfilm should learn from this article:

To be clear, I'm not going to put anyone down for liking this movie like most of the detractors for TLJ did to me, nor am I going to say something stupid like "ItS tHe WoRsT STaR WaRs FiLM EvER AnD iT rUiNeD StAr WaRs AnD mY ChIlDHoOd". On the contrary, I think that's childish and it serves no purpose other than to divide the fanbase even further than it already was. Hell, I'm not even 100% sure I dislike it, I'm sure eventually I'll come to love it like I have with every movie including the holiday special, as heretical of a take as that may be. As I said before, those three videos from hellogreedo, Star Wars Explained, and AT-AT Chat, sum up the way I'm feeling about the film.

To be even clearer, this is the type of stuff I'm talking about when I bring up the fandom menace:
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: blingdenston on 12/23/19, 12:33:12 PM
Yeah, I feel you there, Gabe. The memes and jokes going around reading 'Written and Directed by REDDIT' do have a certain sting of truth to them. That said, as shitty as the shitty fans can be (and they are pathetically shitty), they don't literally make the movie...the folks at Disney, LucasFilm, and J.J. Abrams did that and I'm unable to blunt my dislike by targeting weiners on YouTube. They greenlighted TLJ, they reshot and redid Rogue One after it became clear that having the crew survive just wrecked the movie...they should have known better.

They definitely should've done better. I keep thinking back to ROTJ, TFA, TLJ...individual moments and shots from those movies just LEAP to mind: the speeder chase through the redwood forest, Rey sledding down the dunes on Jakku, the massive explosions of blood red whenever a blaster hits the surface of Crait. What's this movie got that grabs? I WOULD say the storm-wracked duel on the Death Star remnant on not-Endor (don't worry, dudes, no Ewoks here...we'll put some in just to keep the brand alive, but you won't have to suffer those STUPID Ewoks in OUR movie, hur hur)...but the BIZARRE Carrie Fisher doubling and the backwash of the big Rey reveal just sorta robbed the movie of all meaning for me, so all I see is two characters I don't care about anymore fighting over going to see a character I can't possibly care about any more.


Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: recoveringgeek on 12/23/19, 02:10:44 PM
They made a movie.

I saw a movie today.

It was a movie.

What was the movie about? I really couldn't tell you.

If they had made a movie about Rey turning to the Dark Side, and Ben Solo pulling her back, that would have been a great second movie leading into a third movie. That also would have made my one genuine shocked and happy/sad moment feel real, when Rey brought down the prisoner transport with Force Lightning.

That's a terrible send off of Chewbacca, but far better than what R.A. Salvatore ever did for the same character. So, for a moment, they made me forget there wasn't actually a story. So kudos, they made me believe again for one scene.

One scene.

Then I resumed watching a movie.
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: Hawking on 12/26/19, 04:50:34 PM
Try as I might, I just can't divorce these actual movies from the stories of their production. It was a bizarre exercise watching TROS, I found myself almost entirely unable to pay attention as to what was happening on screen because
I was too busy picking out why the thing I was seeing had been put in the movie. Luke's diatribe on Ahch-To? Placating TLJ haters. Rose being totally sidelined? Placating TLJ haters. Palpatine returning? Direct result of the trilogy not being planned and the three-movie arc lacking an antagonist. Lando's "they always come" line? Again, direct shot at TLJ's themes, returning to the Star Wars status-quo. Chewie getting a medal? Fan service. Carrie Fisher's b-roll being incorporated into the film with CGI? Couldn't just write her out, probably for commercial reasons. Immersion was impossible, the whole thing felt so artificial, as though it was made in a lab by robots. TFA, TLJ and particularly TROS were clearly unplanned as a trilogy, rather being individually crafted responses to the environment in which they are released.

I don't blame Rian Johnson for that. I don't even really blame JJ Abrams. I 'blame' (and, frankly, even that word feels too strong. This hasn't RuInEd My ChIlDhOoD. All this trilogy has accomplished is diminishing my enjoyment of the Star Wars brand substantially, I just find it hard to care anymore!) Disney and their committees for playing it so damn safe. But that's to be expected. Like Bling (and Martin Scorsese!) said, this is how the film industry is trending now - big budget, vapid movies that are devoid of any soul, tailor made to meet specific audience expectations. In this case, Star Wars(tm) is now an established thing that I expect to see change very little going forward. Episode IX is how Disney ultimately views the brand now - it's a simple story of good guys, bad guys, action set pieces, CGI aliens, lightsabers and nostalgia that you can package and sell as toys, snapchat filters and theme park rides in Orlando. IX was never going to be deeper than that.

I've never been the biggest fan of the Marvel movies for much the same reason, with the exception of a few of them, they all feel like substantially the same movie to me. That's where this trilogy has taken Star Wars. The series has always been heavily commercialised, but the movies, even as the marquee products, exist to serve the brand now, rather than the other way around.

As for the movie itself: I dunno. It was a thing. I enjoyed some of the action set pieces I guess? I walked out and I'd already forgotten half the movie, and I have no desire to see it again. We got two good Star Wars stories this year, and neither of them were IX.
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: Joshmaul on 12/26/19, 05:44:27 PM
I read the Wikipedia plot synopsis. My first reaction was: "What basement-dwelling fanboy wrote this shit?"

My stepfather wants to go see it in the theater this weekend. He's welcome to it. I'll wait until it's on Disney+ - the admission price will be cheaper, the snacks will be better, and there won't be any fucking kids.

(And hi, guys. Not dead yet. :D )
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: GabrielThorne on 12/27/19, 02:40:04 AM
So I saw the movie again. And honestly, yeah...I'm not as conflicted as i was before. Actually I found myself enjoying the film more than I did the first time. Hell, r/starwarscantina's been helping me view the movie in a new light as well.

Some interesting threads that perhaps you people may or may not enjoy, honestly, just go to r/starwarscantina in general:

Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: Hawking on 12/27/19, 03:01:45 AM
So I saw the movie again. And honestly, yeah...I'm not as conflicted as i was before. Actually I found myself enjoying the film more than I did the first time. Hell, r/starwarscantina's been helping me view the movie in a new light as well.

Some interesting threads that perhaps you people may or may not enjoy, honestly, just go to r/starwarscantina in general:

Funnily enough I also ended up seeing it again today with my family, and also enjoyed it more the second time around. Had to turn my brain off a bit, but, the emotional beats worked a little better this time. Knowing what was coming made it a little less jarring when the particularly whack shit popped up. The main thing I got out of it was wishing that Abrams had been given 7, 8, and 9, just so the trilogy maintained some consistency.

Still wouldn't say it's my favourite movie in the world, and the script is still silly,'s...fine, I guess? They could have been braver with this trilogy, could have contributed something genuinely interesting to the franchise and challenged the audience, but, hey. Maybe this was always how it was gonna be.

Definitely going to check those threads out, though, thanks for sharing!

Edit: gonna sleep on it, more thoughts to come on this movie and the sequel trilogy more broadly
Title: Re: The Rise of SPOILERSwalker [discussion thread]
Post by: blingdenston on 12/27/19, 05:14:04 PM
Like I said, I'd give it a C- but I can absolutely positively not get past the utter defensive cowardice of this movie. They dropped a gauntlet in TLJ: the Force is not the domain of the blood-superior; the Jedi aren't defined by their manifold failures but by the courage and mercy of their Rebel descendants; the rise of fascism is rooted in shallow, meaningless violence and self-glorification. And this movie sniffs around the gauntlet, makes a 'pee-yew!' face, and then replies: nah, the Force is the domain of dynasties and bloodlines (MAYBE you can have a LITTLE Force to stop being a Stormtrooper, all those OTHER indentured child soldiers were Just Evil lol...but not Ben Solo, he gets to come back 'cause he's a Solo-Skywalker, y'know); the TRUE power of the Jedi is in inheriting the legacy of fuckin' cartoon characters and Mace Windu and PREQUEL Kenobi, who simply shall not be held responsible for the Republic's failures; and evil comes from an old wizard who can never truly be defeated and the sacrifices of the Rebels were pointless 'cause he just starts a better Empire with a THOUSAND Death Stars, hee hee!